The Monday Morning Marketing Podcast is brought to you by Esther of IPA Group, bringing premier online promotion to your business.
And Melanie of STOMP Social Media Training, who empowers business owners to manage social media and marketing for themselves. Welcome, guys, to another episode of the Monday Morning Marketing podcast. Today we haveJanine Coombes, service offers expert with us and we're talking how to expertly package your business. Welcome, Janine.
Hello. Thanks for having me.
You're very welcome. Packaging your business, break thatdown for us. What packages, what services? Services, products? Both?
Yeah, everything. Package everything up? Why not? So what alot of very talented, lovely people, I'm not taking away from them, but whatsome people do is they look at the overarching position of your business andhelp you position and brand your whole business. There's nothing wrong withthat. What I tend to do is flip it slightly because the type of people Isometimes work with, they're struggling to articulate exactly what makes themdifferent, knowing what offers exactly to sell. So we start with the offers andwork up, because once you've worked out your number one thing that you want tosell for the next year or so and beyond that is serving people you love to workwith, that's profitable, that brings you long term recurring income, if that'swhat you want in your business, who doesn't? And that you really, really enjoy,then once you've got that sorted, you can then add other offers if you want andthat can actually reveal what your overarching position is. So thinking aboutpackaging up your whole business? My "in" to that is the offers.Start with the offers. That's what I do.
So just so that everybody else knows I'm actually here as well, the reason why we wanted to bring you on about packaging is because it'ssomething that you quite uniquely offer out of all the guests that we've had on, certainly in the last little while, anyway. Do you help people create thepackage and suggest how it's put together and how it's promoted? Is that all part of your deal?
Yes. Previously I've helped predominantly with the actual packaging and I've got my own three P's model, which is quite simply thepromise, which is the messaging. Like, what are you emotionally saying that people can identify with and what they want, what matches their wants in theirhead, the package is the sort of nuts and bolts. Does it make sense? Are there rational reasons for them to say yes there? And the third one is the price,because pricing can get even the most stalwart of us, sort of get our knickersand a twist about pricing. So once you've got those three things together, youcan position your offer to attract the right kinds of people. What I'm findingnow is more and more I want to help people with the actual selling and thepromotion of it, because once you've got clear on all of it, that piece isreally easy, but it's not always obvious to my clients. To me, it's like, oh,obviously, you do these blogs and you would do these, and if you're going to dopodcasts, the titles of the podcast would be these. And you would obviously goabout building your audience like this and this is an easy way to sell, butit's a bit up until now, I thought, well, it's obvious now, so they probablydon't need me anymore. And now I've realised it's probably a case of curse ofknowledge, and what is obvious to me, it's not necessarily obvious to otherpeople.
So true.
Yeah. I think especially if it's your own business, you'retoo focused on the details to see the bigger picture. We've talked about thisbefore as well, where it's almost easier for somebody else to write your biofor you because they're looking at you from a different point of view, adifferent aspect. So the promise, then, the promise that you are going to giveyour clients. So we met, just a little backstory, we met Janine at ATOMICON inNovember 2021. Seems a long time ago now, and you were talking about buying ahouse and how you had certain things in mind, but then you definitely hadthings that you didn't want, like the location, and you ended up buying a housein the location you didn't want because it had things that you didn't realiseyou wanted. So is that the sort of thing that you grab out of people whenyou're doing, you know, helping them with their service offers? Do you sort ofsee, well, people have been buying these services or these products from you,so why not bunch those all together and offer them the whole deal that way,rather than having six different packages?
Are you going to let her answer?
Yeah, I was hoping she would jump
She was giving context. Yes. I do like sticking my nose intothe whole range of offers when I start working with people, just to get aflavour of, you know, some people, it's interesting, some people don't haveenough offers and some people have too many offers or too many ideas, should Isay? It's rare nowadays that I work with people who haven't packaged upanything at all yet, because that can indicate that quite a big mindset shiftin their business. It's quite a big leap to go from absolutely zero packaged upoffers and you're only selling stuff on the hour or on the day rate or somethinglike that, to go into pure packaged up offers, that's quite a leap. So I don'ttend to aim at those people anymore. I tend to work with people who have triedpackaging up offers and they haven't actually managed to make it work for them.They're not selling easily, they're not enjoying the work that they aremanaging to attract. They might be attracting the wrong kind of customer. Sothat's the kind of problem I like to solve.
So is this because the majority of people you work with area couple of years in business? So is that where there might be a mindset shift?
Yeah. I think it's rare that I work with people who've beenworking for under a year. It's more two, three, four sometimes I work withpeople who've been working 10-15 years in business and they haven't quitecracked this element of it. Or maybe, I've been working with quite a few peoplerecently who have been "done for you", like designers andcopywriters, that kind of thing, and then they want to reposition themselves asa mentor/coach/trainer consultant, that kind of "done with you" kindof service provider, which, again, that's quite a big mindset shift as well.But as long as they're expert in their field and they've got that confidence,it's not a problem.
You actually created a perfect segue from there, thank you.So, when it comes down to creating packages, would you advise people to try andbuild something initially by themselves, or would you encourage people tocollaborate from the get go in creating a package? Because we were talkingabout done for you, so I was just wondering which would be better, in youropinion?
Okay, I'm going to answer it and then you can say, no,that's not why I meant at all. If they're just starting out, I mean, I would alwaysencourage people to experiment and I always find it fascinating because somepeople naturally get it and they can just put together a package and they findthe messaging that really hits home and they're matching what they're sellingwith what's in people's heads of what they're looking for, and they justnaturally do it. And I can sort of see and because I've got tonnes and tonnesof business friends now, forever a popular person, I see from talking tofriends, business friends, that they haven't had to have any help putting thosethings together. So I'd always encourage people, as the first port of call, togive it a go and just follow some really simple principles, which I can shareright now, if you want. Get a pen and pad out people. The really simpleprinciples of packaging up your business is you're selling what people want. Soinstead of selling by the hour or selling by the day rate, or saying, okay,waiting for people to come to you and tell you what they want, I want thisresult, can you quote me on that? And then you spend ages doing a bespokequote. Instead of doing that, try and see what the themes are in the peoplethat you work with, who you love working with, and the types of jobs thatreally light you up and that you really get you out of bed in the morning. Gofor that kind of work and try and notice the themes and find what the solutionis. What are people actually, or rather the outcome people are searching for?If you can package that up, that is something that you can put a price on and astrap line on and then put together a package that isn't broken down by time.You can say, if you want this result, it costs this amount of money to workwith me on this. And look at my lovely testimonials. Because that's, again,that's why I work with people who've been in business a few years. They've gottonnes of really, really lovely testimonials and that part of the frustration.They're getting all these lovely testimonials. It's like, well, blinking Nora,why am I earning more? I'm working hours God sends and I'm not earning as muchas my clients. I'm not seeing the benefits of this apparent amazing talent thatI have.
Do you also think, you were talking about mindset shiftswith the business owners. Do you also think there might have to be a mindsetshift with the consumer as well? For example, when you're going with, say, awebsite package because web designers usually do 50% down payment, 50% oncompletion, and then if you want anything else after that it's so much per houryou can buy a package of like a retainer deal after that. We at IPA Group,slight promotion here, have always, from the very start, done packages of well,it will cost you this each month over at least the first year. After the twelvemonths when the website has been paid off, then you can opt to continue withthat price, lower it, raise it if you want to add more things. But we find somepeople just don't get it and once the website's done, they're like, well, no, Idon't have to pay anymore. How do you work the mindset shift of the consumer?
Yes, that is a good one. The solution to that, I would say,for that example is your content and just prequalifying people and doing somesort of sales content that helps people make the decision whether you're rightfor them. I can just see a blog or a video about ten reasons why we're not theright people to work with because we're thorough and we make sure that you'regoing to see the results for the long term. I mean, I could write the blog foryou, so that's the solution to that one. But from sort of a broaderperspective, it is about being really clear with the types of people you wantto work with, what are they looking for, what are they open to? So what's on alot of people's ideal customer avatar list is that they've got to be willing tobe open to change, to be ready to respect you as the expert, for instance,ready to take risks, ready to take responsibility for their own results. Sothat's one on my sort of mental list of people I like working with. And I've experiencedit as a customer. Like, you know, I have worked with coaches and I was tooearly it was too early on for me to work with them. I didn't get very goodresults, but I don't blame them because I wasn't ready, and that was myresponsibility. I remember still having a toddler at home and trying to workaround that and then trying to throw a few grand at a coach. Well, funnilyenough, I didn't have time to do the work that we agreed on and I didn't getany results. So I can't blame her. That was my fault. It's very time consumingwhen they're not at school, and even sometimes when they are at school, likeright now.
So we know who we want to work with, you know how you wantto help them. But there is a certain expectation that you always have to createnew packages, I think. Do you think that's a pressure that everybody should puton themselves? Do you have to create new packages every quarter or every halfyear? Can you just live with creating a new package once a year or somethinglike that?
Oh, that's like a red rag to a bull, that sort of pressure.No, I don't think anybody should pressurise themselves to do anything. No topressure. And no, I don't think you have to be constantly creating packages. Ithink what you've got to be open to is tweaking. I think marketing is all anoffer creation. It's all about tweaking and trialling and testing. And if youlaunch something and it's a flop, it doesn't mean that it's completely rubbish.It could be just one little bit it could just be one little bit that you needto tweak. And it's funny because most people assume it's the price, andactually it's usually the messaging or the package itself. In fact, messagingnine times out of ten, I'd say. It's positioned slightly wrongly. It's attractingslightly the wrong people. They're not quite ready to buy. You haven'texplained why they should buy, or for a million different reasons. But tweakingis the way forward. I think once you've been tracking a few years and you hiton a package that you love to sell, that's profitable, that's getting goodresults, that's the one that could be the front runner and becomes your wholebusiness. However, there are personalities I know who don't like that. ADHD,there are so many people now I know, especially women who've been latelydiagnosed with ADHD, it just doesn't float their boat. Having one thing andsticking to one thing forever, it's horrible for them. So I wouldn't you know,it's what suits, doesn't it?
Absolutely. Now you touched there a little bit on price now.We haven't talked about it yet because it is the big elephant in the room thateverybody runs from as quickly as possible. How do you price your products orservices in your package so that you're not doing yourself out of money. Becauseif this is the one thing that you want to sell, if this is your one, you're notselling your time, you're not selling your hourly rate. How do you price it sothat you don't (1) price yourself out of the job or (2) underprice yourself?
Yes, pricing. There's so many different angles I could comeout. Let's try and calm down and think of the best one. So number one, if youfollow my three P's method, it becomes easy because but seriously though, ifyou've got really clear about what people, your ideal clients, what theyactually want, it's got to be something valuable, it's got to be somethingurgent, something that they really want to change, like they're really investedin changing. Once you've got clear on what they're actually paying for, thatreally helps you realise the full value of what you're offering. And then ifyou do a thorough job of, okay, what am I taking them through? What knowledgeam I drawing on? What training have I had to go through to get here? Whatinvestments in my own personal development and knowledge banks have I investedin? Once you've gone through all that process, then when you look at the price,you might find that your mindset has shifted quite a lot and you're willing toput a bigger price on it because you realise the full value of what you'reoffering. And it is really tricky if you start comparing and breaking it down,how much does that work out per hour? That's the worst thing you can do.Really? What does that make my day rate? It's like, no, don't do that becausethat's not what people are paying for. So I don't recommend looking atcompetitors. And I also my absolute top tip is never, never, never ask peoplewhat they'd be willing to pay. Whenever I talk about market research, peopleare like, "oh, I could ask people what they'd be willing to pay". AndI'm like, no, don't do that. Because from my experience, I used to be incorporate marketing departments and we used to run one of my roles, we used torun yearly market research so we could compare year on year, the changingperceptions and what have you. And for the first few years, we included price.What do you think of the price of the service? People always said it was tooexpensive. "It's too expensive". "Oh no, it's really, reallyexpensive". "I don't want to pay that much". And then they wouldpay it. They would pay it month after month after month, year after year, theywould pay it. So it's like, right, okay, so they didn't mean to, but they werelying. And then if you do research about a new offer that's all lovely andshiny and sexy and sounds really exciting, and then you put a price on it,would you pay this? People go, oh, yes, I would definitely pay. That soundsamazing. And then you actually ask them to buy, and then they don't buy itbecause it's too expensive, so it's just not reliable intel. The only wayyou'll know if people will buy at that price point is if there's a buy button.That's it.
And what do you think, what's your opinion on value adds on?So, like, say you get this, this for this price, plus I'm going to throw inthis and this at this value, but you're going to get it all included in thisoriginal price.
It seems to be kind of accepted as best practise at themoment. I'm not a huge user of that tactic, to be honest with you, and I don'tknow whether I'm cutting off my own nose to spite my face.
I think a lot of that is passive income, though, isn't it?
I've seen it on everything. I've seen it on coachingprogrammes, I've seen it on group programmes, I've seen it on DIY courses, I'veseen everything. I've seen it in webinars, and then they sell at the end andthey're like, "not only that, but you get a set of steak knives worth£3000". I just think you've got to use the techniques that you don't mindbeing used on you in a way. So, like, countdowns. I have no objection tocountdowns whatsoever. Some people do. So if you have an objection to it, don'tuse it. It's got to be true to you. I've got a sales page up at the moment. Idid put bonuses, but they're not buy now, otherwise they'll expire. Thesebonuses are worth an extra thousand pounds. It's like, these are the niceoutcomes of what will happen if we work with each other on this thing together.So I might as well list them here because otherwise I'm not doing myselfjustice. So, you know, I don't have anything against putting bonuses at all.
It's all in the way you package it.
Yeah. So you could argue the bonuses are part of thepackaging. I would cover that on a sort of a client by client basis. The bulkof the work is more on the messaging, positioning, kind of pricing package, theactual nuts and bolts of what goes into it, because so often a client willunderestimate what they're actually doing with a client. They just think, oh,all I'm doing is having a couple of calls a month. It's like, well, there's somuch more that's going into that. You've got a methodology that you're drawingon. You've got these other skills that you're drawing on. You're using these.Sometimes they've done their own software or sharing their own techniques, youname it.
Just one more question on the whole pricing thing,
You're not dropping that, are you?
I mean, I think it's something that people get into theirhead that there's this price and that nobody would pay that. And then we've gotthe recession. So is there a point at which you can increase the price of apackage that you've already sold, say it's a month, month on thing that you cansay, right, starting from such and such a date, my prices are now 10% higher.Or do you have to just wait until that deal expires and for your next consort,or the next people that buy from you, then increase your price?
I think anything goes, really. Whatever you want.
What have you found works best for people?
I will always help them price on the value of what they'reactually selling. Right now, recently, I haven't been dealing with people whoare actually increasing the price of what they're currently offering. In fact,when we finish, they're like, oh, this is an introductory price, I'm going toput it up for the next round. They're so eager to put the price up, it'sawesome. We haven't actually had to cover it. It's like, oh, this is just anintro one. This is just my first round and already I'm feeling, I personally,as a business owner, I feel when I'm getting too cheap, I feel it. Yeah, thisis a funny thing. You start resenting your own clients and it's not their faultbecause they didn't ask you to drop their prices. You already did it. You sortof talked yourself out of it. But you're so right. This whole recession thing,it harks back to the beginning of the pandemic, where everybody, not everybody,but a lot of people, were panicking. And I saw a lot of stuff on social media,like, oh, because everybody is struggling right now, I'm going to slash myprices. It's like, but don't you have a mortgage to pay? Don't you have bills?Don't you have suppliers? What are you going to do? Stop working with yoursuppliers and then they're not going to have any work. You've got to keep theball rolling. It's not helpful to make assumptions about what people canafford. Do people need the value of what you're offering? Do they need whatyou're offering? Because often the people who are slashing their prices, theywere struggling to sell before, and then the recession or the pandemia comesalong and it's an excuse to slash prices further. But when you dig into it,they weren't selling very well before. So you've got to be careful. You know,I'm sure there are areas where they will need to be more price sensitivebecause of the recession, but it's not as many as people think. There's a lotof panic. A lot of panic. Am I allowed to mention I do actually have a handyguide to help people increase their prices? That might be useful.
No, no, of course you can.
In fairness, we would love to be able to promote you more.So where would people need to contact you? Where's the best place to reach outfor you, Janine?
You can have a browse on my website for some really goodblogs, even if I do say for myself, janinecoombes.co.uk. I usually hang out onLinkedIn, so you just search for Janine Coombes or on Facebook, but I'm mostlyon LinkedIn and I am on TikTok as well, but just don't expect too much.
No, that's great. Thank you so much, Janine for coming onand sharing your three P's of packaging, your business. If you do want to getin touch with her, guys, do reach out, do get her free download and get intouch with her and let her know how you get on with your promise, your productand your price. That's it for today. We'll be back next week for more MondayMorning Marketing. Until then, bye.